The Real National Debate: Hamilton vs Jefferson

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Perhaps the status quo is no longer holding; people are growing more and more dissatisfied with their options, whether democrat or republican.

The truth is, the current two-party system always leaves one half of a country ticked off and feeling oppressed.  This begs the question; is this really what the Founders intended 233 years ago when they signed a document that started the country?  Did they really intend Congress to manipulate 3 Clauses in Article 1 Section 8 so as to rack up a $105 trillion dollar debt?  Did they intend to have the 10th Amendment ridiculed like it was by David Shuster on MSNBC?  Did they really want one-half of the country perpetually angry at the other?

So, when I was covered on CNN and Fox & Friends for an interview as an average citizen, I never mentioned the word democrat, or liberal, or leftist or republican or right-winger.  Instead, I pointed at Congress and properly identified them (all 535) as the real problem, the real elitists.  They’re the ones in cooperation with big corporations, who have saddled our country with a debt we can never pay. 

Perhaps a more productive exercise by our “Old Media” would be to help advance the ultimate argument that we confront as a country.  Simply put, are we or are we not a country that is still governed by the fundamental principles described in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?  If we are not, only bad outcomes are achieved on this course and no one will be satisfied.

So, if the chasm is just too large between the ideologies, and it appears to be, perhaps our country’s leaders should gather in good faith to openly discuss 1776 and 1787 afresh.  For just as there are Hamilton’s legions today advocating a larger and larger central government, there are also Jefferson’s legions wanting to eviscerate the size and reach of the federal government.  I suggest that before lines get too dramatically drawn, perhaps cooler heads should prevail just as they did back in 1787.

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13 comments
Karl Kline
Karl Kline

Since seeing all the red flag warning signs from the 08 campaign and the left's agendas since Obama, I made it a point to educate myself more into the realm of government politics and in particular our Constitution. What is coming to light to many Americans is the reality of humans still trying to achieve the utopian socialist state.
I find it somewhat mysterious that elitist egos incline to believe that their humanism theories can better the fate of mankind when all evidence from history refutes socialism as folly. Beyond folly, socialism or fascism or any form of totalitarian government has not given any evidence of a utopian goal and in reality has driven societies totally opposite of what would resemble a utopian state. History's humanism socialist folly has instead murdered 100's of millions of people; oppressed liberty; produced misery beyond comprehension and stifled the human spirit of the freedom that life offers.
I am thoroughly convinced that the founders of the American Constitution saw clearly the flaws of history's governments and meticulously crafted a constitutional law for a government to give all inhabitants of the country a reasonable chance to live within the birthright of their liberty.
To the article's point of going back to 1787 to regroup as to our Constitution's intent is right on the mark. We can make our brilliant Constitution better. We need to discover what is needed to amend our Constitution so that politicians are unable to usurp any Constitutional principles so as to prevent what is now at present happening. Something has slipped through the cracks that has given ideological power to get beyond the intentional Constitutional 'checks and balances.'
In other words, what has occurred several times in America's history has progressed gradually away from the restraints our founding fathers saw as real threats to human liberty. In other words, I think a lot of Americans are seeing better what our founders saw.
I feel that many of us would agree we are at a critical time for a renewed passion that inspired our founders into action. My thoughts have gone out to my state's leaders for action to initiate a second Constitutional Convention; to bring dire attention as to its intended principles and if need be bring amendments as the Constitution allows to further protect our liberty. I fear as I know many of us share; if we do not act with the virtue, integrity and courage as to the freedom our founders enabled for us, we will lose it to folly. Since Obama, have we not lost much to folly and the reality of more in the future?

mayflowergirl
mayflowergirl

As a child, I was asked by a teacher to choose between the views of Jefferson and Hamilton. Being a child with little experience in such matters, I intuitively chose Jefferson. Time and experience have proven him "right" to my mind.

Jeff Matthews
Jeff Matthews

Let me suggest the ideologies of the Republicans and Democrats are not that far apart. If you can visualize the foray in which they entangle themselves, you will see they are fighting over nickles and dimes. Neither of them cares about the other 95% that is at play in our minds.

Figure it this way.... They want to be "big" leaders with a lot of power and control. No question about that. Now, how do they engage in that control? Easy. Peddle influence. But how do they peddle influence? Gain loyalty. How do they gain loyalty? Money or in-kind services that cost money.

Now, where does all that money come from? Okay, this is where you have to call on your common sense.

Sure, we hear all the time how the top 10% pay 80% of the taxes. There is no question that the progressive tax structure puts the greater burden on the rich. But is that really so?

I want to test your social acumen here.

We have an INCOME tax. Manifestations of a wealth tax exist here and there, but they are not the mainstay for appropriations in America.

If you are worth $10 million or $100 million, the INCOME tax is not going to exactly prevent you from staying rich and influencing our beloved politicians. In that category of wealth, you may earn $500,000 in a year and pay a lot of tax on that. But your social status in America remains fixed at the top.

So, let's think about this.... Our political system is dominated by politicians who want to peddle influence and control things, and they need money to do it. They dare not tread on the heels of the rich who sponsor them; thus, we have and maintain an income tax.

The rich maintain their high status and influence America's politics, the politicians nickel and dime the working class as much as they dare, lest the masses rise, and hence, the status quo remains.

I am opposed to taxation at current levels, as so many of us are. But rest assured, your favored politicians - be they Democrat or Republican - are there in Washington fighting AGAINST you - that is, unless you are rich. The Republicans are, at best, incessantly fighting (they say) to keep the Democrats from bumping you another 3 or 4%. WooHoo!

That is not the fight of a true, dedicated citizen. How can they do me any favors fighting over nickels and dimes? They are clearly maintaining the status quo, and watch (if you haven't already seen this by now in the past), when the Republicans are back in control (and they will be), all the sudden their priorities will call for more spending, while the Democrats will be fighting them over the same nickels and dimes. Look at Medicare prescription coverage. Was that not a Republican example of trying to squeeze a few more nickels and dimes out of the working class to peddle influence and gain the loyalty of the retired, which we all know are growing in numbers?

That's they way it works, and with these politicians, that's the way it will always work. If anyone really thinks they can convince them to get their heads on straight, you're dreaming. There is no convincing them. They do not represent us. They do not think like us. They do not live like us. They are NOT us. They live in another world. A world in which they don't ever buy tickets to sporting events, operas and vacations. These are all furnished gratis by friends in high places.

LibertyGal
LibertyGal

You make a great point, Mark. I want to comment especially on this:
"So, if the chasm is just too large between the ideologies, and it appears to be, perhaps our country’s leaders should gather in good faith to openly discuss 1776 and 1787 afresh. "

Are you aware that there is a Continental Congress 2009 going on right now in Illinois to do just that (www.cc2009.us)? However, instead of it being attended by "our country's leaders" (viz. Congressmen and Senators), it is being attended by nationally nominated and elected Delegates OF THE PEOPLE from almost all 50 States (3 from each state) and they have been meeting since November 11 and will wind up on the 22nd. Here is a portion of their intent:

"The format for the Congress includes two sessions per day with guest speakers and documentary films to illustrate for all audiences how unlawful billion dollar bailouts, federal spending via limitless debt that enslaves our children, trillions spent on unconstitutional wars in places most Americans can't find on a map or tell you why we are there, the Bill of Rights -- intended to protect our God-given individual rights as a free people -- is now ignored on a daily basis, and has eradicated our Republic.

"In addition, the Delegates have established Committees for each major area of violation, charged with drafting Remedial Instructions to be formally served upon both the Federal Government and each State's legislature. Delegates are quick to point out that these Instructions will be accompanied by a pro-active, peaceful mass movement of Civic Actions that all Americans can readily implement in order to ensure complicity from this and future servant government officials.

"Here is a list of some of the committees:

WAR POWERS CLAUSES

GUN CONTROL LAWS

FEDERAL INCOME TAX

FEDERAL RESERVE

USA PATRIOT ACT

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

NORTH AMERICAN UNION - NAFTA

"Out of CC2009 will emerge a compelling record of the violations of Fundamental Rights our People now suffer, a well articulated set of "Remedial Instructions" to literally direct government officials to execute under pain of mass resistance, and a volume of viable, practical and creative "Civic Actions" every one of the We the People may take en masse, to hold the Government accountable to our Law, and our Constitution."

This is a non-partisan effort (the delegate-elected President of the Congress is a Libertarian and the Vice-President is a Constitution Party leader) and the goal is to reign in the government and get us back to our Constitutional roots. They are broadcasting daily live via the web so that all Americans can participate by being educated about the issues and can contact their delegates for input. This is another significant grass-roots effort to get this Nation back to serving We the People instead of special interests and the elite aristocracy that most of our Founders tried to dismantle in this new nation.

You can watch live on www.cc2009.us and www.givemeliberty.org/cc2009. There are also rebroadcasts of past speeches that you can access there.

I hope everyone will watch, participate and follow-up on this vital effort to re-establish our Republic.

Karl Kline
Karl Kline

This is what I've been hoping to see come to fruition. Thanks for posting it, it brings hope, again.

eds777
eds777

Read "Hamilton's Curse" by Thomas DiLorenzo, PhD. Also, read his "How Capitalism Saved America".

BXCellent
BXCellent

What we really need is a "Wiki-Party" a platform by the people, with majority consensus, for the people, and candidates who will stick to the platform or be voted out immediately. Unfortunately, for this to work, we also need a populous who will: a) understand this concept and b) stick to their guns and actually vote out incumbents that don't follow the rules. This is the major problem. It's an sad, but true, truism that 50% of people are below average intelligence. Until we can work out a way to educate these people appropriately, or prevent them from voting, we are, and will always remain, in trouble.

BXCellent
BXCellent

What we really need is a "Wiki-Party" a platform by the people, with majority consensus, for the people, and candidates who will stick to the platform or be voted out immediately. Unfortunately, for this to work, we also need a populous who will: a) understand this concept and b) stick to their guns and actually vote out incumbents that don't follow the rules. This is the major problem. It's an sad, but true, truism that 50% of people are below average intelligence. Until we can work out a way to educate these people appropriately, or prevent them from voting, we are, and will always remain, in trouble.

mek1959
mek1959

Hello Jeff,

I understand the frustration, believe me I do. I think perhaps we have to look at this as a process or set of phases:

Phase 1 - STRONG 10th Amendment legislation introduced and passed in early 2010 to see exactly how committed to tyrannical behavior the federal government is and likewise, how committed to liberty the states are. This will be the first defining moment.

Phase 2 - Depending on the outcome of phase two, find and field candidates that will publicly articulate a restrictive Article 1. Section 8. position (state and federal level) and then it's up to us to support and finance them.

Phase 3 - If Clay is right in his response above and it really will boil down to a popularity contest, well then, we're back to 1776 and a new set of Founders will have to emerge.

Sadly, all of these phases are draconian and will cause pain. But as you'll hear me repeat over and over, we're in a "pick you pain" moment in history...there's simply no easy way out of this.

Jeff Matthews
Jeff Matthews

I say that everyone who really understands and cares about this issue should easily recognize that, with only the most minimal and inconsequential of exceptions, our officials in Congress and the President are not going to steer the country properly - regardless of the political party label they choose.

To put it bluntly, they ARE the elite; they want ONLY power; they MIGHT think they are promoting a just cause by trying to re-sculpt national policy, BUT the only national policy they aim to direct is for MORE control and not less. This, regardless of party affiliation, is a lost cause.

Therefore, those of us who really understand this should not worry about their vote on the federal level. You might have Ron Paul here and there, but the Ron Pauls are too few. In fact, they are so few, they are, to put it bluntly, ineffective and thus, expendable.

I think everyone who knows and understands this should cast their votes for their Congressional House/Senate seats and for the President, by simply writing in "Mickey Mouse." It would really be interesting to see if Mickey Mouse could get over 1 million votes in 2010.

We need to make a mockery of the mockery that is, indeed, the federal government.

Dale Tuley
Dale Tuley

Jeff, You have a good idea, but, unfortunately, in most jurisdictions, a "Mickey Mouse" write-in ballot would just be tossed into the trash bin and not recorded for posterity, or for publication. A better plan would be to have candidates like Doug Hoffman in every congressional district - someone who is conservative and is willing to truly "support, protect and defend the Constitution of the United Sates of America,"

JoshuaLyons
JoshuaLyons

Great commentary, Mark! I believe this is the issue that must ultimately be decided.
-Joshua
www.ForgottenMen.com

Clay Barham
Clay Barham

PRINCIPLE OR POPULARITY

How should we pick a proper candidate, let’s say, for President? Should it be one most principled or most popular? Should it be one reflecting the principles of America’s founding, or the most popular? Would a Sarah Palin be the most principled while a Hannah Montana the most popular? If so, which would be best? At the start of the 20th century, founding principles defining Democrats began to vanish, leaving new principles reflecting Old World policies once tossed out of America. Today, we have Republicans wanting to win by avoiding principle, and Democrats wanting to change America, back to an Old World two-class dictatorship model, where the few elite rule the many. Obama was elected on popularity, not that McCain was principled, and has led America, like the pied piper, toward a Marxist Paradise like Cuba and North Korea. It just goes to prove, today, that an Obama or Hannah Montana would be the preferred choice of non-thinking Americans and a new Royalty for their admiration. In the meantime, the unique principles upon which America was founded are allowed to vanish forever. Claysamerica.com

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    This post was mentioned on Reddit by Brysamo: George Washington warned against a multiple party government for fear of, well, these kinda things happening

    it doesnt really matter how many parties there are tho, people are always going to have their ow…