Comments on: Missouri House votes for Gold and Silver Tender

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By: EdwardNilges

EdwardNilges — Sun, 06 May 2012 13:50:22 +0000

@DougTjaden
Nothing wrong with buying specie. I just hope that I don’t give my Maple Leaf to a beggar by mistake. But you still need to explain to me why you support what appear to be either silly or unconstitutional state laws. The relationship of the states to money was defined a long time ago in he original Constitution. They can’t Coin it nor can they create fiat money other than make gold and silver legal tender. It’s unlikely, however, that they will be able to force large, interstate merchants like Walmart to accept Eagles; those merchants (e.g., nearly all merchants) will simply declare that they are outside state jurisdiction, so to get petrol and guns from Walmart in a situation of social breakdown, you’re going to have to do one of two things depending on how Silver Saver holds your specie:

1. If you have silver bars, your new best friend will be the guy who wants a silver bar and is willing not to cheat you.

2. If you have certificates of deposit you hope to hell that the Internet is up, you have access, the ATM is up, it accepts the SS ATM card and that the dollars it spits out are still accepted.

By: EdwardNilges

EdwardNilges — Sun, 06 May 2012 13:49:41 +0000

@DougTjaden
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Mr Tjaden.”I claim it [specie] has been money throughout history, a point you many not agree with.”

It’s not a question of agreement, it’s a question of truth. The fact is that gold and silver haven’t always been money, as in my example of Europeans, for whom gold and silver were stores of value at the end of the Middle Ages, versus the indigenous civilizations (Maya, Aztec, Olmec) of Central and South America.

“However it has acted as a store of value when paper systems fail.”

The problem is that it’s a leaky store of value when paper systems fail, for it creates “contracts of force” where the merchant devalues the gold (for example) of the refugee from Nazi Germany to Shanghai in order to resell that gold at a bourse where the refugee is not permitted to trade.

You may say this is “evil government”. The problem is that government is the precondition for a stable market in retail specie, and it has always tended to require that people who deal in gold and silver through official channels, where they can get the going rate rather than a discounted rate, be residents of the community in order to avoid speculation. In this, government is performing its Lockean minimum of functions in regulating and thus enabling private contracts.

“Looking at our present situation and deciding to buy some ‘insurance’ against the potential failure of the present system is prudent I believe. Proverbs 22:3 says ‘A prudent man foresees danger and takes refuge, while the simple pass on and are punished.’”.

Such insurance is already available, and it’s called “insurance”. It’s globalized and therefore safer than a contract with a firm like Silver Saver.

Matthew 6:19: “Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal.”

“I do not, nor does SilverSaver, advocate putting all of your money into gold and silver. It used to be that these metals were 5 to 10% of nearly every portfolio – before the present greed and arrogance led those in charge to believe they could control themselves in a purely fiat system.”

In fact, the Federal Reserve has been irresponsible, but not in the way you believe. It’s been avoiding moderate inflation of the sort that’s benign for the debtor and working man (that is, most of us) and this has prolonged the current Depression. Instead, it irresponsibly has injected the system repeatedly (in 1983, 1987, 1994, and 2002) with financial feel good “steroids” in the form of cheap money.It’s been manipulating the currency this way because the wealthy in our society refuse to pay their fair share of taxes and the result is that now, lowering the discount rate to zero is “pushing on a string”.

“The reason I advocate sound money with such passion is that I believe the suffering you speak of can be mitigated if at least a foundation is in place should the worst happen. If the worst does not happen, then we have a choice in currency which will keep the Fed from getting to the brink of failure in the future, and allowing the US Treasury to use debt to regulate and legislate us into slavery.”

You cannot have an alternative currency without amending, or tearing up, the Constitution, which gives exclusively to Congress, in Article I, the right to Coin money (create it by fiat as all currency is created) as an enumerated and exclusive right. Merchants can and will refuse payment in silver and gold. They ACCEPTED it when the trade of goldsmith existed, when entry into it was controlled by guilds, and they could be reasonably sure that specie payments could be verified. Today, too many things glister that are not gold.

A society in which you cannot predict what the merchant will accept is one without enforcement of legal tender and this society will not thrive on specie. Most people will revert to bartering their skills and remaining goods. And when they run out of goods, and the people with goods force them to accept labor-barter contracts which merely reproduce the lives of the laborers, this will be effectively a slave system.

“I concede the point that gold and silver will be volatile as measured in dollars. I believe that is a sign of 1) a dying fiat currency, 2) people’s fear/hope that the current system can be saved, and 3) their uncertainty of what to do about it.”Well, I have no problem with a couple of Krugerrands although I prefer Canadian Maple Leafs.
“I also believe that the best time anyone can spend is building relationships with those in their community. We don’t have enough of that going on regardless of what happens economically, and if things do get challenging, those relationships will be more valuable than all the gold and silver in the world.”

Extending credit on a micro basis to customers and suppliers is a better way to get to know your customers and suppliers and their reliability, whereas holding specie fails to create relationships. And if you discover that the merchant won’t take Maple Leafs there goes the relationship.

Like it or not, the value of the dollar is set by forces beyond the Fed’s control. It’s set on a world perception that the United States is a stable, Federal and Constitutional democracy, therefore its contracts will be stable including the dollar bill as a contract. Whereas people won’t buy sovereign China debt because the Chinese constitution has an overriding Leninist clause, to the effect that the Communist party represents the will of the proletariat and may for this reason do ANYTHING, include walk away from debts as did the Bolsheviks in 1920.

And note that Tea Party and right-libertarian politics are fraying this perception as in the case of the budget standoff last August.

“SilverSaver customers have the choice of taking delivery or leaving the metal stored in the depository. We believe in giving people a choice. There is no “one-size-fits-all” consensus of what the future holds. People can act based upon their convictions of what they see coming.”

Christ points out in the old law may have been prudence but we really don’t have that much control over our lives, and should replace prudence in some measure with loving one another. Sure, ten percent in gold and silver sounds like a good number. But most people in the USA just cannot save. We’re not teaching our kids how to create machine tools or start a small business, we’re teaching them computers which in my experience will always deskill the computer specialist.

By: DougTjaden

DougTjaden — Sun, 06 May 2012 12:54:15 +0000

@EdwardNilges
People do not have to find joy in others unhappiness to purchase gold and/or silver. I claim it has been money throughout history, a point you many not agree with. However it has acted as a store of value when paper systems fail. Looking at our present situation and deciding to buy some “insurance” against the potential failure of the present system is prudent I believe. Proverbs 22:3 says “A prudent man foresees danger and takes refuge, while the simple pass on and are punished.”

I do not, nor does SilverSaver, advocate putting all of your money into gold and silver. It used to be that these metals were 5 to 10% of nearly every portfolio – before the present greed and arrogance led those in charge to believe they could control themselves in a purely fiat system.

The reason I advocate sound money with such passion is that I believe the suffering you speak of can be mitigated if at least a foundation is in place should the worst happen. If the worst does not happen, then we have a choice in currency which will keep the Fed from getting to the brink of failure in the future, and allowing the US Treasury to use debt to regulate and legislate us into slavery.

I concede the point that gold and silver will be volatile as measured in dollars. I believe that is a sign of 1) a dying fiat currency, 2) people’s fear/hope that the current system can be saved, and 3) their uncertainty of what to do about it.

I also believe that the best time anyone can spend is building relationships with those in their community. We don’t have enough of that going on regardless of what happens economically, and if things do get challenging, those relationships will be more valuable than all the gold and silver in the world.

SilverSaver customers have the choice of taking delivery or leaving the metal stored in the depository. We believe in giving people a choice. There is no “one-size-fits-all” consensus of what the future holds. People can act based upon their convictions of what they see coming.

By: DougTjaden

DougTjaden — Sun, 06 May 2012 12:43:06 +0000

@EdwardNilges Ok. I’ll try to explain here why I believe gold and silver have a bright side.

People do not have to find joy in others unhappiness to purchase gold and/or silver. I claim it has been money throughout history, a point you many not agree with. However it has acted as a store of value when paper systems fail. Looking at our present situation and deciding to buy some “insurance” against the potential failure of the present system is prudent I believe. Proverbs 22:3 says “A prudent man foresees danger and takes refuge, while the simple pass on and are punished.”

I do not, nor does SilverSaver, advocate putting all of your money into gold and silver. It used to be that these metals were 5 to 10% of nearly every portfolio – before the present greed and arrogance led those in charge believed they could control themselves in a purely fiat system.

The reason I advocate sound money with such passion is that I believe the suffering you speak of can be mitigated if at least a foundation is in place should the worst happen. If the worst does not happen, then we have a choice in currency which will keep the Fed from getting to the brink of failure in the future, and allowing the US Treasury to use debt to regulate and legislate us into slavery.

I concede the point that gold and silver will be volatile as measured in dollars. I believe that is a sign of 1) a dying fiat currency, 2) people’s fear/hope that the current system can be saved, and 3) their uncertainty of what to do about it.

I also believe that the best time anyone can spend is building relationships with those in their community. We don’t have enough of that going on regardless of what happens economically, and if things do get challenging, those relationships will be more valuable than all the gold and silver in the world.

SilverSaver customers have the choice of taking delivery or leaving the metal stored in the depository. We believe in giving people a choice. There is no “one-size-fits-all” consensus of what the future holds. People can act based upon their convictions of what they see coming.

Best regards.

By: EdwardNilges

EdwardNilges — Sun, 06 May 2012 03:37:33 +0000

@DougTjaden Mr Tjaden, I apologize for my tone. I will here try to explain why I feel your business has a dark side.

I have read the materials on Silver Saver. My basic issue with them is that your investors have to look forward with a great deal of Schadenfreude (joy in others’ unhappiness) towards social breakdown, for this is probably the only way their portfolios will appreciate.

And in that social breakdown, they may not be able to contact you or sell their holdings at the reference price. They may not be able to “sell” their holdings at all, for, as I’ve said, in your scenario, cash has no value.

The question then would become whether or not they could barter their specie, or certificates of specie deposit, in their local community for goods and services. In a barter economy, real value would be, I think, real stocks of food, petrol, and above all LABOR POWER…the skills and willingness to help others.

The women of Berlin cleaned up the mess in 1945. In an earthquake you don’t want silver, you want a good man with petrol and the Jaws of Life. You want doctors and nurses. After the initial crisis, you even want teachers, those creatures so despised by conservatives, to continue your children’s education, and give them something to do now that there’s no TV.

You don’t want shrewd investors without practical skills.

Absent some sort of government, gold and silver are worthless save as ornament. Tinned food and petrol are more valuable but they run out. The ultimate source of value is LABOR.

Which is why labor is wasted when it is expended on most investment schemes. I’ve developed investment software, and I’ve developed software for monitoring the hydrostatic stability of oceangoing research vessels which are helping to clean up the environment. I believe it’s my duty to do the latter.

By: DougTjaden

DougTjaden — Sat, 05 May 2012 16:33:30 +0000

@EdwardNilges This will be my last post. You may say what you wish. Once again, you know nothing about me or what drives me to be involved in this issue. I’ve been writing on this issue for 10 years. I am passionate about it. I believe in it. I traveled the country speaking on it years before being blessed to be able to work with a group of people dedicated helping others protect themselves from what is coming financially.

History will prove one of us correct, and it won’t be long. Best regards…

By: EdwardNilges

EdwardNilges — Sat, 05 May 2012 16:07:27 +0000

Most of these silly new laws are smoke and mirrors, for all they do is confirm rights we already have when they are drafted to avoid violating Article I Section 8 of the Constitution, which enumerates the logically exclusive power To Coin Money as a Congressional (which is to say, Federal) power. Or, they invite Constitutional challenge.

This is because they are a scam on the part of specie dealers to restart the growth in silver and gold prices which stopped around 2008. Tjaden’s involvement makes this clear.

By: EdwardNilges

EdwardNilges — Sat, 05 May 2012 15:51:59 +0000

@DougTjaden It’s ad hominem, Dougie boy, but your Malapropism is most amusing, since a hominid is a subhuman proto-human.

I KNOW that metals traders are LYING when they use the rate of specie appreciation from the historic lows of the 1980s to get fools to buy at 1700 an ounce. The rise in price was driven by non-repeatable historical events. Today, about the only safe investment are Federal Reserve notes because the Euro is in the toilet and China’s Leninist system makes its sovereign debt and its RMB unattractive.

I also know from direct observation of what you post that you are advancing a political theory to create business, and I’ve been in business. I made money by creating value, from compilers in Silicon Valley to computer books to compassionate assistance to John Nash. When I was in sales I sold things of genuine value that met genuine human and business needs. I didn’t go around lying to stupid people, telling them that the most popular world currency is debased.

THIS IS A BALD-FACED LIE since Federal Reserve notes, unlike the Pound in 1925, are uninfluenced by US debt; the pound’s value was dependent on war debts from Britain to the United States. We owe most of the deficit to ourselves and as to Chinese debt it is simply not in China’s interest to stop loans since this would cause a revolution in that country when its factories stop.